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  #21  
Old 11-23-2007, 05:21 PM
Temptation Temptation is offline
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Default Re: Covert

Seems like there is a bit of a difference between 2 kinds of players. you have the 'simple minded' no offense meant ofcourse, guys who see all their kingdoms just as characters. And the old timers, who see their kingdoms together as a group.
When you pick your races, especially with a multi limit and you see your chars as a group, you pick races that compliment eachother, races that help all your kingdoms together become stronger.
This is basically the only reason people play covert or magic races. Sure its fun to steal stuff, but covert plays a lot bigger role than that.
Its a bit like some people here said, if there is an enemy covert character in range, you are worried. You try desperately to get enough enforcers, which in return makes you weaker in war, or you dont get any enforcers, get your tech stolen and with less tech its more difficult to set up a good defense. This is exactly the reason covert characters are played, it weakens enemy war kingdoms which makes it easier for the war races to take the land.

Now then why doesn't everyone play a covert race if the benefits are so obvious? The weaknesses and troubles are obvious too, when you play a covert character, you're basically free land and because you are such a threat at higher score, everyone wants to hit you too. So no playing a covert race isnt easy and you're rebuilding from a few k land every day. And with a 5 char multi limit, you're sacrificing 1 war character to do this.

The end result of having covert in the game is more depth to the game, 1 side is very focussed on keeping that covert char down, while the player or alliance themselves are trying everything they can do get the character up and steal stuff, or force the enemy to get more enf.
Its not just a simple, you take my land I take your land back game.

Exactly the same can be said about magic too, playing a magic race is annoying, you will always be weaker in war and mostly free land, but the benefits of it are important, not for the magic char itself, but for your other war kingdoms, you can dispel them, and you can weaken your enemies with spells.

In short, covert is damaging, covert should be damaging, if you let them get in your range its your own fault.
  #22  
Old 11-23-2007, 06:02 PM
Tharis Tharis is offline
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Default Re: Covert

What Sh7 said! :thumbsup:

I seem to agree with all your posts now...,scary!

EDITED : No advertising other games
  #23  
Old 11-23-2007, 11:41 PM
Jarlaxle Jarlaxle is offline
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Default Re: Covert

Quote:
Tharis wrote:
What Sh7 said! :thumbsup:

I seem to agree with all your posts now...,scary!
That's because he makes a sound argument instead of some basic statement with no basis; nor does he just cry about something he doesn't like.
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  #24  
Old 11-24-2007, 02:02 AM
Tharis Tharis is offline
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Default Re: Covert

Plus...a darkelf with alot of thieves and ninjas are easy pickings for a any warrace.

Bloated in score due to high exp covert troops=land gone to anyone that feels like attacking.
  #25  
Old 11-24-2007, 06:10 PM
Jarlaxle Jarlaxle is offline
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Default Re: Covert

That's why they should be able to fight if they are to be weakened even farther.
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  #26  
Old 11-25-2007, 07:22 AM
Skarkull Skarkull is offline
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Default Re: Covert

Ok, you say there are two kinds of players, "simple minded" as you stated and vets. I have been playing this game for years, and I have never liked covert, it sucks. I'm not simple minded, I just have a life.

I'm sorry if not all of us can devote hours upon hours to playing this game. I'm in Iraq, fighting a war, I'm lucky if I find an hour every other day to play. I just logged on to find half my tech gone. My only complaint is that when I go after land, all I get is land. When you go after tech, you get more than just eco, or ent. you go after all of it in one attack.

I do think that covert needs to stay, I just think it is off balance and in coverts favor. It takes too long to recover from tech theft because your study has limits theft does not. It takes a percentage of what ever you have. Land finding does not have a limit, but taking land takes a percentage of what you got, see how this is going?

They can steal, but are not limited by how much land they can find when they search, I can take their land, but I"m limited by how much my tech goes up when I study.

And if your a dwarf, you can totally forget about trying to put up any kind of defense from tech theft, it is impossible.
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  #27  
Old 11-25-2007, 11:56 AM
Temptation Temptation is offline
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Default Re: Covert

Dwarves are actually one of the easiest races to hold tech on, because they dont use as much food to get the same combat strenght and it costs them less gold to get the combat strenght, which means more extra gold for enforcers, plus theres the whole 2k econ max.

Besides that I'm having a hard time understanding your arguments, when you go after tech, you steal yes tech.
On average war race, economy will be at 1000, ent you dont need, and maybe 400% in const?
So you lose tech 10 times, resulting in an econ of 600 and construction of 240.
Now yes this takes some turns to study back. A bit over 100 turns if you want to get it all back, but that doesnt mean you are doomed or something, all you lost is some tech, your character will still function fine without it, you didnt lose any troops or land. You can still take turns attacking, but with simply lower income.
And during those turns there are always quite some turns where you simply have to do something to get more troops. You either lost a decent bunch in last one attack, or you're trying to climb for the next target or simply hiring troops at the end of turns.
Now all these turns would normally be 'lost' you either search locs, study w/a types or something crazy like that. Now you use them for something a bit more productive and increase your econ+income.

Overal like i said before, yes the warrace is a bit less effective, its not able to rehire troops as fast and move as quickly through rankings, but its still fully functioning.

Now lets look at this from the other way, a land attack that 'only' takes land.
Covert race is done stealing stuff, and log out to go do something productive ( hopefully not fight some war in rl)
And everyone else goes and hits him.
Before the recent abuse changes, if they went in, its fully possible to lose land 20 times or more before the covert race can play again, but now lets assume 12 hits.
Which will happen basically every 12 hours or so, because any race thats in range can take land from a covert char.
But ok 12 attacks. Lets say the covert char had 30k land before, which given land searching limits etc is reasonable. After the attacks he'd have 8500 left.
Now this is not the only damage there is, during 12 combat losses, you will lose quite a few units, so the amount of rangers left are minimal. If he even had any but we'll get to that later. So anyway, he's down to 8500 land and a low amount of troops, no building and no people. Plus ofcourse, most races have special attacks, so its likely, especially if you're an annoying covert race that someone used a special on you.
So your morale is at 1 for 10 turns or so, you lose even more troops and pop and the score you are at at this time is probably only 10% of the original score or so.

After this the rebuilding starts, a covert character is a special character to play, you cant actually grow when you're doing what its suppose to be doing. War races grow by hiring fighters and warring, they get more land and war more. Ranger races search land, hire more rangers, search more land. Covert races hire thieves, steal tech, but are already maxed at their techlevel, so dont actually gain any income, or any land or any means to grow like they did earlier when you could steal experience. So in order to move with a covert race you have to not hire thieves but rangers instead to search for land, but then when you want to steal tech, you need all or most your score in thieves,so you have to fire the rangers again. No half rangers half thieves or something normally wont work, its nearly impossible to spy, so if you simply try and see you lose 25% of your thieves, which is rather much to rehire every time. ( compare this costs to the costs of a failed normal attack)
So anyway, in order for a covert race to even do some damage, they first have to rebuild a bit and get stable, then hire rangers, search land get buildings move up in score. After that and they get to the 30k land again, which takes quite some turns yes, since you're hirign rangers from scratch. Usually have about 100 turns left if you're lucky, then you spend 50 turns hiring thieves to match your score, the last 50 you loot or try to loot, again if you're lucky. Getting caught once will set you back 20 turns or so. Finish turns, and next day start from scratch again.

Now i'm not sure how this is in covert's favour.
And I hope by describing this i've given a bit of an idea why covert chars aren't played much.
I'm sure its annoying to see some tech gone when you log in, and it's usually those people that you see complaining. But lets not forget how difficult it is to play the covert char, you simply don't hear as much complaining about it because only a selective group of people even bother to play one, and those are usually a bit more experienced in rebuilding and kinda knew when they made the char that they would have do to this daily.

Oh and a few maybe related tips, dont study warmachine tech and dont study entertainment, cast 2 48 turns aphros in a row on yourself to get max morale. This will seriously reduce your need for tech.
  #28  
Old 11-25-2007, 08:56 PM
Jarlaxle Jarlaxle is offline
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Default Re: Covert

By golly that post was just a work of art ` )
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  #29  
Old 11-26-2007, 01:17 AM
Jarlaxle Jarlaxle is offline
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Default Re: Covert

btw, how many of the top kingdoms are there because of covert and how many are there because of military might?
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  #30  
Old 11-26-2007, 05:23 AM
Skarkull Skarkull is offline
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Default Re: Covert

Your saying that when I attack a covert race that they lose their military, guess what so do I. When you do a covert attack, and assinate my troops, what do you lose? Then I get attacked, and lose land, now I'm out troops, land, and you lost minimal troops due to the fact that I could not put up a defense. Covert is not just stealing tech, but includes assinations as well.
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