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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:15 AM
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Default Think Before Speaking

Okay, I know that I am about to push a few buttons here, so please do not take this personally, and don't think I'm just trying to be a witch with a capital B.

Now most of you probably have no idea that I have had some small experience with programming. That has given me an idea of what goes into the creation of any program. I am currently working on learning more about programming, basically i know BASIC language, and am now trying to learn C++. However, the basics of making any program are the same.

First, you have to brainstorm, which includes figuring out the type of program it will be, then figuring out general effects, and specifics effects of the program. You have to figure out not only what actions a user can take, but all possible outcomes for that action. When you program, think of yourself as being a god, you have to make an attempt at being all-knowing.

Second, you have to figure out what code you will be using. Not the language, but the actual code itself. You have to try to keep things as simple as possible, so that if you need to debug something, you don't have to rewrite ten pages of code for one small error.

Third, you have to put your code together. Basically, this is actually writing out the code itself. This, believe it or not is the easiest part.

Last, you have to debug. This is a series of debugging, then testing, then debugging, then testing... Until you have found as many bugs as you think possible, then you keep testing and debuging, just to make sure.

Any time a change is needed the programmer has to go through all of this. As well as making sure that they have absolutely no conflicts with other areas of the program.

Some of the changes people have suggested on this are very unnecessary, and would not only take up a lot of time, but would make the game harder for those new to it to grasp. Some of the changes are from a view of what people think would make outcomes be more predictable, or things that would make the game far more easy for them, without consideration for the fact that this is supposed to fun, not easy and predictable.

Sorry if any of you feel like I have stepped on your toes, but please, think about what effect the changes you want will have, not only on how the game is played, but on how it will affect the way others perceive it and how much work it will take to make those changes.
  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:42 AM
Jarlaxle Jarlaxle is offline
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Default Re: Think Before Speaking

Quote:
wisdomsbane wrote:
Some of the changes people have suggested on this are very unnecessary, and would not only take up a lot of time, but would make the game harder for those new to it to grasp. Some of the changes are from a view of what people think would make outcomes be more predictable, or things that would make the game far more easy for them, without consideration for the fact that this is supposed to fun, not easy and predictable.
In your first sentence I quoted you imply a change should not be suggested because it would make the game too hard. In your second you imply easy is not fun. So... what do you want?

Certainly some suggestions are better than others; some are good while others just plain suck. However, even though you imply that sucky suggestions shouldn't even so much as be posted, I do not agree with that premise either. The suggestions should be seen as brainstorming in and of themselves. And, even sucky suggestions sometimes lead to great ideas.... not to mention its fun to tell somebody how stupid they are ` )

I do not even agree with your implied premise that predictability is not fun. I know every move that can be taken in a game of chess, yet it is loads of fun to play. The only unpredictable variable needed would be the actions taken by my opponent.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Think Before Speaking

First, I said that the game itself should be left easy to learn and understand, the changes suggested would make it just that much more that a newb would have to learn. Hard to understand and hard to play are two different things. Chess is easy to understand but with a good opponent can be difficult to play. The suggestions were things that would seem to make the game easier to play, but less ... realistic. I don't know if you read the post I had under the topic of suggested changes, but I did mention that the unpredictability of the battle outcomes is a bit more realistic. In many games predictability is a very fun component, to a certain extent. But think of it this way, what fun would it be if you knew who you would win and lose against. Or even if you knew that there was little chance of winning or losing against another.

And I wasn't saying that such suggestions not be made. If I had meant that I would have simply said, "You idiots should have your fingers cut off so you can't make such stupid comments." As it was I was simply saying that the changes, while making the game somewhat easier to play, would make it harder for newbs to learn, cause even more changes to be necessary, and not be as fun as it is to some. I don't like subtlety, and I try not to use it when trying to get a point across.

So let me clarify what I was saying. The suggestions and the people making them are by no means stupid. I am sorry if anyone thought that I was implying that yall were stupid. The ideas were great, but I think that there would be fewer people joining if they had much more to learn. But the biggest problem is that some of the changes would need a nearly complete revamping of the game. It might even make it more fun, but if something like that was going to be done it would probably be easier just to develop a whole new game.

Like I said I am sorry if I hurt any feelings, so remember that I am not subtle, if I say something that is exactly what I mean, without implied meanings, unless I otherwise state that. Also, please read what I am actually saying, that way there is no misunderstanding like the one you got from the phrases harder new people to grasp, and easier to play.
  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:39 PM
Jarlaxle Jarlaxle is offline
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Default Re: Think Before Speaking

Quote:
Also, please read what I am actually saying, that way there is no misunderstanding like the one you got from the phrases harder new people to grasp, and easier to play.
Oh.... I know you didn't.... Maybe if that sentence made just a bit more sense I wouldn?t have such a hard time replying to it? You lost me on the ?phrases harder new people to grasp? part.

I QUOTED YOU FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! So why imply I didn?t read it?

You didn?t give even a single example of a suggested change that would make the game harder or?.. harder
?to learn.? . SOOO, one must then assume your meaning by the IMPLICATIONS therein.


Quote:
First, I said that the game itself should be left easy to learn and understand,
Well, since you asked me to read what you are actually saying, I will type that out just to prove I read what you actually said: ?First, I said that the game itself should be left easy to learn and understand,?.

If you care to read over your first post, you will find that you did NOT in fact say those words. The only time you mentioned the word ?learn? was when you were describing your experience in programming; context that has nothing to do with the degree of difficulty this game is to play OR to learn.



Quote:
Hard to understand and hard to play are two different things.
Sure are, but you didn?t talk about such things in your first post. One would have to read the IMPLICATIONS in your meaning to have come to such conclusions.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Think Before Speaking

Okay, I need to apologize here. I made this thread after reading the suggested additions and changes thread. And when I was replying to what you said I must have mixed the two posts up.

Sorry. Having a three month old, I haven't been sleeping much day or night, sometimes gets my thoughts a bit jumbled, so while what I mean is clear to me, it sometimes won't be to others. You may have to refer to the post I made under the other topic to understand some of what I was saying.

please bear with me for a while, and don't hesitate to point out when my brain happens to trip over itself.

*shuts mouth before anymore mix-ups can be caused*
ops:
  #6  
Old 12-31-2005, 05:26 PM
OrbofThralni OrbofThralni is offline
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Default Re: Think Before Speaking

firstly I'm just going to quote Thalia for a second "Always read what you type before you press enter." (although I don't always do this =/)

k secondly,

"But think of it this way, what fun would it be if you knew who you would win and lose against. Or even if you knew that there was little chance of winning or losing against another."

for the record, I know that if I were to attack Jarlaxle, or Thalia, or even Bandit when he is playing the game for real, that I will not break him. I know that there's little chance of me breaking Thalia and Jarlaxle when they are really playing as well, but that does not take away from the fun the game brings. There are other people out there to play against, and I'm sure I would be able to break at least one of them. And when you do that, you learn to hire more troops, or to do something differently next time you attack someone. I know that if I'm at 10k with 500 fighters on a HG and I'm attacking someone at 9k with a dark elf, I'm going to break that person, hince the fun is still there I actually liked the game more when it was more predictable =/
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